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07/06/26 @alexanderstephenlange.聽 Good question, and great topic!聽

For most foreigners, particularly in the Northeast where you live and the North where I live, I think that聽 "assimilation" in the strictest sense of "eventually passing for a Brazilian" is practically impossible, mostly because Brazilians won't let us.聽 That may be different in S茫o Paulo where people are more accustomed to immigrants and perhaps in some parts of the far South, but most Brazilians have a mental map of who looks and sounds "Brazilian", and most of us don't fit it and never will.聽 A sometimes ambiguous upside of that is that a lot of Brazilians code foreigners as "honorary upper class", which guarantees a certain level of cordiality and respect, but imposes some responsibilities as well -- more on that below.聽 But one is always at least somewhat "other".

A realistic and attainable goal is "acculturation", which for me means correctly recognizing the social signals and cues that Brazilians give and responding to them in a culturally appropriate way.聽 聽This can be more complicated that it sounds.聽 A trivial and funny example:聽 when I first arrived in Sergipe many years ago fresh from the US, people would naturally offer me a cafezinho anywhere i went.聽 In that situation at home, I would have smiled and said "thank you!", so I smiled and said "obrigado!" People would smile back ... and not give me any coffee!聽 It took me a while to realize that, at least in that place and that time, "Obrigado!" coded as "no, thank you!", and if I wanted any coffee, I'd better say "Por favor!" instead.

A Brazilian spouse or Brazilian friends can be indispensable help in decoding the signals -- but you have to convince them that you REALLY want to know, and really want to be corrected if necessary.聽 Otherwise, they may be too polite to tell you.聽 Being coded as "honorary upper class" rather unfairly imposes a social contract on us that requires respect upward and affability downward, so anything that can be interpreted as "punching down", even like joking with a waiter about his service as one might at home, can be a danger zone.聽 Especially in more traditional parts of the country you can expect to be addressed on the street as "Patr茫o" or "Mestre" -- and you have to nod and smile, no matter how uncomfortable it is.聽 Respect must be returned as expected.

Your language points are spot on.聽 An expat doesn't need flawless Portuguese, but making the effort and showing improvement buy a lot of appreciation.聽 But don't become dejected if some people don't understand:聽 the problem may be your face, not your Portuguese.聽 On one memorable occasion not too long ago, my Brazilian husband and I were in an Uber, and I asked the driver a question.聽 He turned to my husband and said, "What did he say?聽 I don't speak English."聽 "But", my husband replied, "he asked you in Portuguese."聽 "Oh", the driver said, thought a minute, and answered the question.聽 He had heard it and understood it, but just didn't believe his own ears; my blue eyes were talking louder than my question.

If your Portuguese is good enough for you to consider codeswitching, i.e., calibrating your language to match the register that the people you're talking to use, that's a very personal decision.聽 My husband is a great codeswitcher, and I am in awe of his ability to do it.聽 My Portuguese is good enough, but I still won't risk it myself:聽 I'm too afraid of offending people by seeming to imitate them or worse, to patronize them.聽 I figure there's less chance of offending by speaking to everyone in the same way all the time, even if my normal register is more formal than the one they use.聽 聽But that could be my own insecurities talking.

Thanks @abthree. Very interesting and insightful responses.

> the problem may be your face

An almost invariable response to me, even when strangers simply see me walking on the street聽 is Opa! This is a reaction I actually like聽 (maybe聽 a sort of conceited "honorary upper class" thing, I suppose). I am super white and blonde, but why I am not mistaken for a gaucho, I'm not sure. You mention "my blue eyes ": Ditto!

>聽 I'm too afraid of offending people...

I have have found in my own case not to be concerned about my language errors. In fact, making errors is sort of essential to learning. But most adults do not want to err in any way. It doesn't bother me and is frequently a source of humor for the Brazilians, which I like. I welcome the corrections.

My wife is a teacher of formal Portuguese for concurseiros who want to land government jobs. I once asked her:

Meu amor, quando vou falar como brasileiro nativo?

Her response: Nunca! I take it as a badge of honor. :-)

I have found a good response when people say I speak Portuguese well, saying O senhor fala muito bem. My reply,聽 Vc tambe'm!聽 Makes for a hearty Kkkkkkkkkkkkkk

As you said, ""eventually passing for a Brazilian" is practically impossible, mostly because Brazilians won't let us".

Cheers!

07/07/26 I am super white and blonde, but why I am not mistaken for a gaucho, I'm not sure. You mention "my blue eyes ": Ditto!


Cheers! - @alexanderstephenlange

Oh, I'm sure that you are, and if you haven't heard it yet, you will. 馃槀聽 The two questions that I get the most are,

-- "Are you from Portugal?"

-- "Are you from Santa Catarina?"

@abthree

And yes, "acculturation" is a better term for what I'm talking about.... not "assimilation"....

If you could measure assimilation, I'd use a scale of 1 - 100 and mark it like this.

1 - FOB fresh off the boat.

100 - Totally indistinguishable from a local in every respect.

Obtaining citizenship would be at # 50.

Being a completely fluent citizen, having a comprehensive vocabulary along with accent and slang comprehension, and able to walk the streets without fear and anxiety of any personal interactions on any level, would be around # 65 IMHO.

The two big assimilation gaps are from FOB to citizenship, and from the high language level to # 100, the total grasp of the various cultural nuances, etc, for which there is no training course, except for living here a very long time under the conditions of full immersion.

So, I place myself at around # 60 or so.........hitting # 65 - 100聽 will come with time, but, it doesn't matter, since I won't be living in every regional zone of Brasil, nor do I care to learn what makes one different from the other, or culturally, how a resident from one or another differs either, beyond the immediate need based on a situation I may be dealing with at the moment.聽 I am happy just where I am and see no need to move up the scale other than thru subconscious accrual with time.

Brasilians, being who they are, will respond to a foreigner and welcome you as one of their own, the moment you are somewhere in the middle zone on my graph. You don't need to advance higher up the scale to exist completely, and enjoy life here, but if you want to, go for it, however, I don't see how it's going to make your situation better for the incremental advances don't really come with any measurable benefits.

I remember years ago standing on a street corner totally unshaven with disheveled hair, in chinelos, a torn t-shirt and beach shorts, when an older woman walked up to me and asked for directions to a store about 2 blocks away. I immediately replied where she should walk, whereupon she said thank you and off she went. I then stood there for about 30 seconds in shock realising I was mistaken for a local. In my mind, that was the point where I realised that I had made it.

So your 1 - 100 scale sort of matches my two levels.

I would probably be about 25 or 30 maybe...

@hagece8690

> and see no need to move up the scale other than thru subconscious accrual with time

Aha, that's what I was thinking, too: subconscious assimilation, without any force....

Alex,

If the question was "how much assimilation" is enough for you personally, I'd say that unless you really wanted to move from 30 to 50, and get the passport, which is a totally documentary process, you're probably just fine where you are. That was my dilemma TBH.

The paperwork and bureaucracy is something you are already familiar with if you've been here a while, so, it's really not a problem in the overall scheme of things, it's just getting the language certification that will be the hassle for citizenship, and frankly, having done it (passed Celpe-Bras), if having the Brasilian passport in my portfolio for travel purposes and security reassurance didn't matter to me, I couldn't have been bothered.

I was just fine where I was at. Problem is, the Celpe-Bras test is heavily skewed (80%) towards grammatically correct, old school, formal Portuguese writing, which IMHO is complete and utter BS on another level.

"Que porra e essa Jessica" (If you're not assimilated enough, you won't get that reference BTW)

Seriously, ask yourself as someone living here, who do you know who talks and reads like that to begin with in all of your day to day interactions, and secondly, when was the last time you had to write a chapter of "War and Peace" to accomplish something while living here.

As long as you can read, and you can write your name, CPF, address, DOB, parents maiden names, and a credit card number, you're all set forever. So, if you aren't working in a capacity where it is necessary, and don't want to expend hundreds of hours (or more) paying for courses somewhere just to pass a pointless test, live on the PR visa forever. You're still assimilated, you just cannot vote, and you still are subject somewhat to the whims (and perhaps taxes) of another country and their passport, so, that's basically it.

Ask your wife what she thinks about my position on that........heh.......I'd love to hear her actual reply as a matter of curiosity. When I wrote the Celpe-Bras test they had us do a written survey afterwards, and I roasted them because the law says one thing (language knowledge sufficient and consistent to the applicants stage in life) versus what they were putting us thru with the test.

@hagece8690

Not sure if citizenship is an exact measure, my friend. I believe many here do not intend to get citizenshiip. I for one don't intend to get it. Still it's a good proxy for that state of assimilation,

I found this other topic dealing with the 1 - 10 level /en/forum/south-am 鈥� facts.html

I'm not saying it is one.

Just that it has to go somewhere on a scale, and where it get's placed is totally a personal preference relative to your position in the country, and in reality, unnecessary for the most part.

07/08/26 @hagece8690 Not sure if citizenship is an exact measure, my friend. I believe many here do not intend to get citizenshiip. I for one don't intend to get it. - @alexanderstephenlange

And there's no pressing reason that you should.聽 As @hagece8690 points out, Brazil (unlike the United States, for example) is unusually generous to Permanent Residents:聽 聽you have all the rights of a Brazilian except that you can't vote or compete for Civil Service jobs,聽 you can be abroad for up to two continuous years without endangering your status, and you're under absolutely NO pressure to naturalize.聽 One of my best friends has been a Permanent Resident for fifty years now, has a Brazilian husband and Brazilian kids, and has never seen any point to changing her status and has never been hassled about it.

If Bolsonaro hadn't taken office on a pledge to try to invalidate my marriage -- the basis of my residency -- I don't know that I would have bothered to naturalize myself.聽 He probably couldn't manage it (and didn't), but I decided to聽 make myself deportation-proof, just in case.

Thanks to all who chimed in.

> the Celpe-Bras test is heavily skewed (80%) towards grammatically correct, old school, formal Portuguese writing,

My wife teaches the formal Portuguese you mention for concurseiros who have to confront that same bosta only because the civil service exams also require it (and to make a living). The exams that test for precise grammar of Portugal are completely unnecessary, like you say, for day-to-day life. Her being a linguist (as I am) she knows quite well the unnecessity of it for the day-to-day; for example, Tu achas? is not said in Para铆ba, which is formally correct; instead we say Tu acha? For comparison, in the US, for civil service exams, you have to demonstrate the basic comprehension (as I'm sure you know) and not a knowledge of British English.

> the law says one thing (language knowledge sufficient and consistent to the applicants stage in life) versus what they were putting us thru with the test

It's a vicious cycle: the people who make those formal exams had to pass them themselves so they see no reason why they shouldn't pass down the same torture. Also there is a strong prejudice against the Northeastern forms of the language. A good book on this topic is Marcos Bagno's Preconceito ling眉铆stico: o que 茅, como se faz.

I have had the PR for some time, and don't really want the right to vote.

Great discussion!

"Tu" is replaced by "voce" here in the South East.

In English you have the TOEIC which is the gold standard for formal english required for employment in certain sectors. Immigration and citizenship to many countries neither requires ANY level of language capability or that high a level of certification. Personally I believe you need to speak a level sufficient to adequately survive to get citizenship in any country. Brasil needs to get it's excrement assembled IMHO, and have two different requirements. One for people working in the civil service, banking, medicine, and engineering for example, and the rest of us. Ta ligado mano ?

It was my intention if I failed the Celpe-Bras to hire an immigration lawyer and test the law's definition in court instead of throwing money away with classes.

07/08/26 Personally I believe you need to speak a level sufficient to adequately survive to get citizenship in any country. Brasil needs to get it's excrement assembled IMHO, and have two different requirements. One for people working in the civil service, banking, medicine, and engineering for example, and the rest of us. Ta ligado mano ? - @hagece8690

Brazil disagrees, and they get to make the rules.聽 And since Permanent Residence makes so few demands and the law is only nine years old, I don't expect it to change much in the future.聽

It was clear to me from the jump that CelpeBras and the courses that can replace it serve as a screening mechanism for naturalization candidates at least as much as a general language proficiency test.聽 Countries screen for the聽 qualities that they want in potential citizens, and Brazil has chosen to require a level of Portuguese proficiency that the graduate of a good high school in Brazil has:聽 higher than the average native-born citizen, in other words.聽 Except for people who are here for thirty years, for whom the requirement is waived.

Still, for the sitting in which I took CelpeBras, about 70% of the people who took it in-country (and 42% of the ones who took it abroad) got grades that qualified, so it's not THAT fine a filter.

8 July 2026

I would love to have a chance to be assimilated - but will never be able to鈥�. I look non-brazilian.

Can an expat be assimilated?聽 No, we lack the deep connections with the land, family, and friends that will qualify us to be at par with the locals.

To make matters worse, I feel that there is a subconscious association of foreigners with a class on its own - with access to more resources and / or opportunities.

I could be wrong - but expats will most likely be seen as foreigners - unless one moved to Brazil very young and is able to make the same connections as the locals.

@Pablo888

Brazil has so many different ethnicities and immigrant groups that I find it hard to believe you don't at least look somewhat like a Brazilian. Makes me want to ask you to post a picture.

> I could be wrong - but expats will most likely be seen as foreigners - unless one moved to Brazil very young and is able to make the same connections as the locals.

We will always be foreigners, yes, and can never fully be assimilated, nor should we wish to be. I myself will always maintain my foreignness, even though I have no choice otherwise. And that is a good thing, IMHO!

Except for people who are here for thirty years, for whom the requirement is waived. - @abthree

It's 15 years of residency actually.

And here is the law. From gov.br (link may be censored as they often seem to be on this site)

"Ability to communicate in Portuguese considering his/her condition of naturalizing candidate (in a manner commensurate with his/her possibilities)." Implying a medical doctor or aviation structural engineer seeking work should be held to a higher linguistic standard than a retired and financially independent individual.

Regardless, jumping thru a hoop placed at a certain point on a course, merely means you have done so successfully at that point in time, and nothing more, as it is simply a documentary requirement for confirming future processes. I continue to learn new words every week and probably will forever as languages also have this way of changing with time.

We will always be foreigners, yes, and can never fully be assimilated - @alexanderstephenlange

That is an off ramp which will never arrive for all the aforementioned reasons. And, that is just fine, for I am happy where I am at, as I figure most are as well.

07/08/26 It's 15 years of residency actually.聽 @hagece8690

Correct.

@hagece8690

Perhaps I should have said I will always be a foreigner,. And I am perfectly happy being here as such! A word a day!

@abthree

> He turned to my husband and said, "What did I say?聽 I don't speak English."聽 "But", my husband replied, "he asked you in Portuguese."聽 "Oh", the driver said, thought a minute, and answered the question

That is hilarious, and it has happened to me as well. Not in Brazil though (although it might eventually will), but in Vietnam, where I used to spent a lot of time traveling. Now Vietnamese is a lot more difficult (at least for us Westerners), and it鈥檚 a tonal language, which makes it especially difficult to understand and pronounce, so I wasn鈥檛 surprised if someone didn鈥檛 understand me. But on more than one occasion, when I was talking to a small group of Vietnamese, there was one that acted as if I was speaking English, and one of the others 鈥渢ranslated鈥� (eg repeated) what I was saying. It鈥檚 an interesting phenomenon.

@Pablo888
Brazil has so many different ethnicities and immigrant groups that I find it hard to believe you don't at least look somewhat like a Brazilian. Makes me want to ask you to post a picture.

> [snip]

[snip] - @alexanderstephenlange

Which causes me to recall the works of Darcy Ribeiro (among others) of what exactly is the composition of the Brazilian people(s).聽 For Darcy's 4+ hour documentary, with clean subtitles in English, search YouTube for:

"O Povo Brasileiro - Darcy Ribeiro Completo HD - Brazilian People (subtitles in English)"

Posted by Brava Gente Brasileira - it is one of many copies of the same documentary.

For another look (in English) as to what Brazil is composed of there's the 1996 book "The Brazilians," by Joseph A. Page.

I make a game out of what Brazilians guess to be my origins when meeting for the first time because I speak Portuguese well enough yet have that persistent accent. In the northeast they first guess me to be "gaucho," then German, then Portuguese. If they don't guess "americano" I then tell them that I am "estadunidense" to which many give that puzzled look of WTF is estadunidense? I follow up with - ambos somos "americanos." S贸 que voc锚 茅 brasileiro e eu estadunidense.

I'm content (for the time being and in spite of having "Brazilian" children) to sticking to my "estadunidense" alien resident status. I don't plan on ever returning to the USA but it is what made me who I am - in a time and a place that doesn't really exist any more. Still, the language test intrigues me as I was once rated "native speaker" at the University of Wisconsin by a Brazilian professor who had just "invented" his test for rating students of Portuguese at the then-strong language department.

mberigan

I make a game out of what Brazilians guess to be my origins when meeting for the first time because I speak Portuguese well enough yet have that persistent accent. In the northeast they first guess me to be "gaucho," then German, then Portuguese. If they don't guess "americano" I then tell them that I am "estadunidense" to which many give that puzzled look of WTF is estadunidense? I follow up with - ambos somos "americanos." S贸 que voc锚 茅 brasileiro e eu estadunidense.


mberigan - @mberigan

Interesting topic ne ?

I always get asked where I am from, and normally the inquiry is prefixed with........"Are you German ?"

I guess if I moved down to Santa Catarina that would never happen though.

07/09/26聽 Still, the language test intrigues me as I was once rated "native speaker" at the University of Wisconsin by a Brazilian professor who had just "invented" his test for rating students of Portuguese at the then-strong language department.

mberigan - @mberigan

If you'd like to play around with it for free and without any stress, the Universidade Federal do Rio Grande do Sul keeps a complete archive of past tests (the written tests and conversation starters for the oral tests) here:

My "test prep" consisted of doing two or three of them with a timer counting down the allotted time for each section; after that, I figured that I was ready.

My Portuguese is still very poor however im well known in my area and everyone is always more than accommodating, helps and hinders at the same time. But for other folks - language even if its poor or you generally understand flows of conversations - your life will be much easier. Abthree really nailed it in his comment for this situation

@mberigan

WTF is estadunidense

These days, because of massive international turmoil caused by the Ugly Orange Monster, I introduce myself as californiano, which everybody recognizes (of course, California being the 4th largest economy in the world and Home of Surfing).

In my version of the "Where are you from?" game, the guesses are similar to yours:

Gaucho, Swiss, French, German... but never California.

Met a German the other day. Funny thing was that he looked Brazilian, while I look German.

Go figure. We're all mutts, anyway, so it's a fun game.

07/15/26 @alexanderstephenlange.聽 We just got back from Rio de Janeiro, and going up Corcovado at the photo spot where they make you stop to take a picture that they'll try to sell you when you come back down, the girl managing entry asked me, "Brasileiro?", and when I said "Sou", the surprised look on her face was so intense that my husband and I both laughed out loud.聽 馃槀

To head that kind of confusion off at the pass, since my naturalization I've been introducing myself as "Brasileiro naturalizado, Americano nato."

@alexanderstephenlange

Tell the truth alexsanderstephanlange!!! WHO in California is R-E-A-L-L-Y from California?? LOL! ?? 馃槑

But I identify with your feelings. Once I've told the person that I'm "estadunidense" I rectify that by adding that I'm really "飞颈蝉肠辞苍蝉颈苍别苍蝉别,"听 yet from a place and time that no longer exists.聽 馃槙

"...Toto I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore We must be over the rainbow...."

mberigan

07/15/26 To head that kind of confusion off at the pass, since my naturalization I've been introducing myself as "Brasileiro naturalizado, Americano nato." - @abthree

I commonly use "quasi Carioca de gema" which always elicits a laugh. I've had a few sideways glances from the airport gatekeepers at GIG too, when I enter the Brasilieros line with my passport.

@alexanderstephenlange聽 Not sure if I qualify. The reason I live in Northeastern Brazil is because My American Father married a Brazilian native (from across the bridge from Rio) and I have been coming here since I was 10. My father passed at 99, and his last wish is that we take care of his Brazilian wife of 50 years, who is also now 99. My wife who is Brazilian brought her from the USA to Northeastern Brazil where she has a very large family.聽 Like I said, I am not sure I qualify. This has been my life, the only one I know, since I was 10, no plugging in necessary.

Roddie in Retirement馃槑

Like I said, I am not sure I qualify. This has been my life, the only one I know, since I was 10, no plugging in necessary.
Roddie in Retirement馃槑 - @Roddie Simmons

You definitely qualify! You were assimilated very young, the best time to become familiar with a new culture and langue...聽 nice to meet you!

Interesting discussion about when "enough is enough" regarding getting comfortable in Brazil and about cultural identity. The goal should not be to speak exactly like a Brazilian. Very few people can learn a second language in adulthood and speak it without any foreign accent. I don't think this is needed anyway and a little accent is good.

I lived 28 years in California and when people asked me where I came from and I asked them to guess, the common answers were: Italy, somewhere in southern Europe or middle east. Even France would be mentioned sometimes, but no one mentioned Latin America or Brazil.

It was always a good way to start a conversation! :-)